Curse

Abedeus · Jan 07, 2010, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

I don't think anyone is denying that aesthetics do not equal skill. However in the masses eyes, it does. Flashier stuff means you have more money, and having more money means your better at GW, on a subconciously level.

This game gives PvEers little reason to play the game avidly, in terms of rewards. Getting experience for quests means little to nothing once your at level 20, and the gold you could easily get quicker doing a simple Bergen farm or something.

Naturally people turn to aesthetics as a way to grind, because like it or not people need grind for a MMO type game to be interesting, and will make grind if none exists.

Seriously? When I see a monk in Obsi or someone with a tormented weapon, I think "lol idiot" and I'm not surprised if it's a Monk with a crappy PvE-like build (I'm talking about PvP) or some "original build" user.

thedarkmarine · Jan 07, 2010, 08:37 PM // 20:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

I don't think anyone is denying that aesthetics do not equal skill. However in the masses eyes, it does. Flashier stuff means you have more money, and having more money means your better at GW, on a subconciously level.

This game gives PvEers little reason to play the game avidly, in terms of rewards. Getting experience for quests means little to nothing once your at level 20, and the gold you could easily get quicker doing a simple Bergen farm or something.

Naturally people turn to aesthetics as a way to grind, because like it or not people need grind for a MMO type game to be interesting, and will make grind if none exists.

This basically sums up the silly argument. Some people prefer big numbers above others' heads. Some prefer big ornaments on their armor. Who is one to say their preference is better than the other?

Martin Alvito · Jan 07, 2010, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4thVariety

So it was ok to play when you were greedy for loot, but now that you had your fill, you are suddenly against it?

I make far more just watching the world go by than I can by playing the game with SF. The problem with all of those ectos being dumped into the system is that their creation makes everything scarce more expensive. By my count, I made as much in the last eight months while hardly playing as I did by actively playing the game and trading during the preceding four years. (Assuming you measure wealth in ectos or the equivalent.)

That's great for me, but it also shouldn't be happening. There are ways to make it possible for you to farm the stuff you want without impacting the GW economy as a whole.

imnotyourmother · Jan 07, 2010, 08:57 PM // 20:57

right oh,

I made 600k and 111 ectos over the wintersday festival. I stopped farming 10 days IN!!!.

Look there is a lot and I mean a lot of gold to be had in this game with a few simple rules.

Buying titles is standard these days and the only place that they need to mess with skills is in PVP. just make PvP skill better or worse leave the PvE alone.

Or leave the PVP alone and nerf the Pv Just leave one alone

Daft Shifty · Jan 07, 2010, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Okay, well rounded player says:

PvE and PvP are two totally different games. (For some reason people think otherwise)
Being invulnerable to attacks is OP, if you think otherwise, be an hero
Midline spiking is OP, when only one warr is needed something is wrong. (in GvG)
Farming is more fun with non-invincible builds (don't argue SF isn't invincible. With some actual skill, it is)
In game monetary wealth means nothing at this stage of the game.
Clearing high end PvE areas in 20min is bad for the gamestate.
Nerfing SF will make people richer. (for those of us who actually have ectos)

I think that about covers it.

englitdaudelin · Jan 08, 2010, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Just because they aren't doesn't mean they can't.

Also, according to Anet, SF is being used for VQs now. VQs, of all things.

If it's being used for that, chances are people are using it for everything, including general play.

Yep, it is. Has been for a while. Doing Urgoz? Perma-sin makes one of the best sweeper's I've seen in a while. Enters rooms, spawns the pops, holds them on corners, and lets the team go at it.

FoW? Tombs? Sorrows Furnace? Dungeon after dungeon after dungeon? Same principle applies.

Vanquishes, especially in areas heavy on the physical damage? Perma sin gathers aggro, ranged dealers kill.

I'm sure plenty of people have used a perma sin in a team with heroes and henchies, since the other 7 can do the killing, in missions and quests. It's absolutely not the most efficient way to go, but with all the hero team builds out there, it'll pass. And no clumsy fiddling with builds.

bhavv · Jan 08, 2010, 01:30 AM // 01:30

The whole idea initially with shadow form was to last 20 seconds, but then leave you near death. I dont get why Anet made it possible to run perma SF in the first place, but it has been in the game a very long time, and lots of players use sins just to farm.

Whether it is good or not, it is PVE, and I could care less how anyone chooses to play when you can steamroll through the game with AI.

The best thing would be to allow henchmen into UW and FoW, I would surely enjoy H/Hing those places.

Rampage · Jan 08, 2010, 01:41 AM // 01:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

The whole idea initially with shadow form was to last 20 seconds, but then leave you near death. I dont get why Anet made it possible to run perma SF in the first place, but it has been in the game a very long time, and lots of players use sins just to farm.

Because ANet fails at balancing skills. They propose a change, say 'oh, good work guys!' and implement it without thinking it through. After months/a year of people telling ANet to do something, they acknowledge it. They then proceed to take weeks/months to nerf it. But wait, it doesn't end there! They either completely kill it (smiter's boon), implement a change that doesn't make a difference (shadow form), or...I don't even want to say properly balance it. But no, that's not it. They then proceed to buff random skills, make more overpowered ones, and then the cycle starts all over again.

They can't balance, at all. They should have thought of that before making over 1,000 skills. If GW2 balance is anything like GW1, it's going to be shit.

fenix · Jan 08, 2010, 02:16 AM // 02:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rampage

Because ANet fails at balancing skills. They propose a change, say 'oh, good work guys!' and implement it without thinking it through. After months/a year of people telling ANet to do something, they acknowledge it. They then proceed to take weeks/months to nerf it. But wait, it doesn't end there! They either completely kill it (smiter's boon), implement a change that doesn't make a difference (shadow form), or...I don't even want to say properly balance it. But no, that's not it. They then proceed to buff random skills, make more overpowered ones, and then the cycle starts all over again.

They can't balance, at all. They should have thought of that before making over 1,000 skills. If GW2 balance is anything like GW1, it's going to be shit.

This is because before PvE skills and the PvE/PvP split, when ANet balanced skills they didn't want to make PvE players mad, so they either balanced poorly or not at all.

What they needed to do was just blast every overpowered skill out of existence (like Smiter's Boon) and say to PvE players "look, we're sorry, but this was a major issue in PvP and had to be done. You can still win PvE by using 999 of our 1000 skills though!'.

Regulus X · Jan 08, 2010, 02:24 AM // 02:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rampage

If GW2 balance is anything like GW1, it's going to be shit.

Same old staff, brand new game [GW2]. ENJOY.

Zahr Dalsk · Jan 08, 2010, 02:31 AM // 02:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

This is because before PvE skills and the PvE/PvP split, when ANet balanced skills they didn't want to make PvE players mad, so they either balanced poorly or not at all.

What they needed to do was just blast every overpowered skill out of existence (like Smiter's Boon) and say to PvE players "look, we're sorry, but this was a major issue in PvP and had to be done. You can still win PvE by using 999 of our 1000 skills though!'.

I lol'd hard. By my reckoning, ArenaNet already did balance with the sole focus being PvP.

moriz · Jan 08, 2010, 02:35 AM // 02:35

too many people are fixated on the negatives on having pvp and pve share the same skill pool, that they never notice the one positive: balancing based on pvp keeps the power creep in check. without it, there's is NOTHING restricting each skill being buffed into the stratosphere. generally, pve players just want skills that blast monsters into smithereens and watch as the loot drops, and anet will bend to that pressure without needing to balance for pvp as well. many of you won't believe me, but think of it this way: this whole mess with shadow form would've never happened, if the skills aren't split.

unfortunately GW2 will probably go the same route. unless anet manages to find another consistent standard to balance against, GW2 pve will rapidly become unplayably easy.

fenix · Jan 08, 2010, 02:50 AM // 02:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

I lol'd hard. By my reckoning, ArenaNet already did balance with the sole focus being PvP.

You clearly missed the point. Yes ANet balanced solely for PvP, but because they were worried about hurting PvE players' feelings, they did balance PROPERLY.

Zahr Dalsk · Jan 08, 2010, 02:59 AM // 02:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

because they were worried about hurting PvE players' feelings

Except they weren't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

they did balance PROPERLY.

I honestly doubt ArenaNet is capable of balancing properly at all. For four years they did balance for PvP, with PvE being an afterthought if it was thought of at all.

I'm just surprised they wasted that time instead of just giving up early and leaving PvP to be static - goodness knows the PvP community would have deserved it. But they were too caught up trying to make it an e-sport game.

Krill · Jan 08, 2010, 03:16 AM // 03:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

I lol'd hard. By my reckoning, ArenaNet already did balance with the sole focus being PvP.

There hasn't really been a decisive skill balance for PvP since rawr spike was hit hard almost a year ago. Since then it's just been the usual assortment of random skill buffs and small nerfs. Also worth noting that it's been a full four months since the last skill update of any kind now.

Windf0rce · Jan 08, 2010, 04:00 AM // 04:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Seriously? When I see a monk in Obsi or someone with a tormented weapon, I think "lol idiot" and I'm not surprised if it's a Monk with a crappy PvE-like build (I'm talking about PvP) or some "original build" user.

No one can be blamed for having nothing else to do than to set goals on high-end items It's not all that hard to get them, either, given time and dedication is put into it. There's nothing idiotic about it, besides, it is all a matter of personal taste.

Back on topic though, I thought the today's update was the skill update, for a moment...

Zahr Dalsk · Jan 08, 2010, 04:29 AM // 04:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krill

There hasn't really been a decisive skill balance for PvP since rawr spike was hit hard almost a year ago.

I never said there has been. Fenix and I are discussing the time before stuff like the PvP/PvE split, when ArenaNet was regularly fumbling around with PvP balance and did not care at all what happened in PvE because of it.

mrvrod · Jan 08, 2010, 05:42 AM // 05:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arduin

Some people indeed don't care about what other people think of them. I think at least you mrvrod got the same opinion. You think your armor is pretty, so you bought it and use it. Would that armor be 1k Ascalon armor, you would still wear it. I count myself to that crowd too.

But! There are people who think rare is prettiest. There are several of them in my alliance. As soon as a new weapon skin would be released (Tormented stuff, Obsidian Edge, Eternal Blade, Voltaic Spear, Bone Dragon Staff, Chaos stuff etc. they'll ditch the weapon they have been using, and go farm for the next one. Only to ditch that one when a new rare weapon is introduced.

That's why Guild Wars is about skins and aesthetics. There aren't many accomplishments left that aren't already done by the masses. Or skins that are readily available.

Of course, who am I to question those people? Maybe they indeed think the Obsidian Edge is a pretty weapon. But when some of those people spent SC FoW 7 days a week and spam the Allaince Chat with 'OMG!!!! I GOT OBBY EDGE FROM CHEST!!! and flash and ctrl-click the weapon every time I'm in a party with them, there's more than that person being glad about a pretty skin.

----

I'm sorry for going terribly OT by the way

There's nothing wrong with being excited over a rare or pretty skin. It's when it leads to jealousy over someone else getting the same skin that it becomes a problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

The whole idea initially with shadow form was to last 20 seconds, but then leave you near death. I dont get why Anet made it possible to run perma SF in the first place, but it has been in the game a very long time, and lots of players use sins just to farm.

Whether it is good or not, it is PVE, and I could care less how anyone chooses to play when you can steamroll through the game with AI.

The best thing would be to allow henchmen into UW and FoW, I would surely enjoy H/Hing those places.

Actually, there has already been a poster in this thread who linked back to the dev update and showed that they knew it would be maintainable. Very interesting that you need Prophecies, Factions, and EOTN for the build to work. Now that the SF craze has levelled and everyone who want's a permasin, has the campaigns they need, anet will now nerf it into oblivion.

Wanna bet the next big OP build will be spread across multiple campaigns, and that one won't be nerfed until sales drop again.

Tenebrae · Jan 08, 2010, 10:37 AM // 10:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Except they weren't.

You are wrong. They said the exact opposite in 1 skill balance log when pve/pvp split started , i dont remember wich one but they did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

I honestly doubt ArenaNet is capable of balancing properly at all. For four years they did balance for PvP, with PvE being an afterthought if it was thought of at all.

Yeah they are not gods but if you can , send some apply or ideas to enlighten them. The thing is that the split was needed since the beggining , is not the same hitting a lvl 18-24 mob that fighting lvl 20 humans and we all know that but players had an easy time to overcome the "issue" ..... but with the introduction of HM, PvE balance turned into BS a bloody lot of skills.
PvE-only skills were a good adittion but it was mainly a bandage , it is obvious that you cant balance a skill thinking in pvp when you are going to use it against a lvl 26-30 mob with 33% fast cast , movement and bloody lots of armor and crit chance+damage.
HM as an idea was great , i think GW2 will have something like that but i pray for it to be different from GW1 HM.

Zahr Dalsk · Jan 08, 2010, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

You are wrong. They said the exact opposite in 1 skill balance log when pve/pvp split started , i dont remember wich one but they did.

Their actions prior to the split indicate that they definitely did not care about PvE, regardless of what they may have said.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

The thing is that the split was needed since the beginning

Absolutely. Or of course, for ArenaNet to have given PvE a second thought instead of balancing PvP First, PvE Never.